Red Flagit

[bikantti]

Stoge sanoitti hyvin

Itselle yhteensopivuus - red flagina sellainen, että jos ei tunnu turvalliselta kertoa omista fiiliksistä toiselle melko pian.

[Alexios]

There can also be a situation where A was manipulated and doesn't understand until later that the session was problematic.

Also when 10 or 20 people are saying that there were problems with their sessions, that's definitely cause for stopping and reflection on what went wrong.

[PuolivilliNaaras]

I would be interested in getting to know people's opinion about this. Is changing view about a session long after the session has taken place a red flag?

E.g. I have a session with A on day X, feedback is given after the session that everything went just fine. More sessions with A then take place, but after months they say that what happened on day X wasn't really alright (or even worse, I get to learn from person B that person A thinks the session was problematic for some reason).

Processing things and being open about it is not a red flag. Sometimes it takes time to analyse how we feel about something, and we learn new things about ourselves. However, if person A decides to be really angry and blame you for something they previously said was ok, that *is* a red flag. Also, telling other people about the problems without telling you, or oversharing intimate information about you without your consent are also red flags.

[Snadistisadisti]

If a person thinks it’s ok to ”withdraw consent” after BDSM session (or just regular sex) has ended and nothing that would breach what was agreed happened, it is a serious red flag. It shows that the person in question is not actually a responsible adult, who you can agree on anything sex related safely.

[machiya]

If a person thinks it’s ok to ”withdraw consent” after BDSM session (or just regular sex) has ended and nothing that would breach what was agreed happened, it is a serious red flag. It shows that the person in question is not actually a responsible adult, who you can agree on anything sex related safely.

This is an interesting point that would deserve a discussion on its own. Whereas withdrawing consent is a right at any moment of the session, withdrawing it after the session is long over is conceptually impossible. So I suppose that would be quite the red flag.

This is a rather complicated matter.
(I base this on that nothing was done "wrong" on purpose)

If on day X, A thought everything was ok and A changed his/her mind during the next few months, it basically means, he/she has "grown" and now knows more about himself/herself. This to me, is not a red flag. I see it as normal.
If A thought on day X, everything wasn't ok and basically, lied, it's wrong. How can I know if the truth is not told ?
If A doesn't let me know, personally, about this change over time, it's wrong. How could I know otherwise ?

And then we land on the matters people argue so much about nowadays :

If A starts to see things in a way that differs from how he/she saw them on day X, did something "wrong" actually happen. And, who is to blame.

I, myself, see consensual bdsm as growth of personality. It sometimes hurts, even, if everything was ok when something happened.
Abuse is abuse, if it is known to be abuse, when something is done. Lack of knowledge aka "uncertain" might be abuse.
Safewords and such were invented for a reason

So I like a lot this answer about developing together and changing views while acquiring experience. Yes, my focus was on sessions when A wasn't victim of abuse. In this case, I think that when A had different feelings on day X and months after that, they're all equally valid and worth being discussed, and then there's no red flag at all. Conversely, it's quite a green flag when A can acknowledge and speak out about developing feelings.

Sometimes it takes time to analyse how we feel about something, and we learn new things about ourselves. However, if person A decides to be really angry and blame you for something they previously said was ok, that *is* a red flag. Also, telling other people about the problems without telling you, or oversharing intimate information about you without your consent are also red flags.

This is also true. If A changed their side of the story with the purpose of blaming, that would also be manipulation, i.e. huge red flag. But if A shares a different version of the story with everyone but the partner involved, that would probably be the greatest concern. If A would tell their partner that the session was alright and kept having sessions with them, all while telling other people that the session was problematic, that would suggest that there's an intention to manipulate people's opinion while keeping the partner unsuspecting. (This is of course different in edge cases such as 24/7 or domestic abuse, but again those are not the focus of the post.)

There can also be a situation where A was manipulated and doesn't understand until later that the session was problematic.

Also when 10 or 20 people are saying that there were problems with their sessions, that's definitely cause for stopping and reflection on what went wrong.

Let's please not take any possible chance to derail the conversation towards specific alleged cases  On the other hand, if we wanna go down this road there's also the chance that person A was talked into believing that something went wrong by someone in a position of influence over them, e.g. another play partner or a therapist. After all, from this perspective malicious people with hidden agendas can be found anywhere.

[harriet]

I think Stoge's breakdown is quite good. Something I'd like to add  to the first category: When increasing knowledge about consent/BDSM leads to different understanding of events. This is something that comes up constantly in forums such as Reddit: Newbies have their first session, feel uneasy about something, but assume it is "normal BDSM" until other people tell  them how consent in BDSM works.

[viaton]

Regret does not mean something wrong was done to me. To me regret is a sign that I made a poor choice and that I need to make better decisions in the future.

To the question itself...
Having an explanation for everything where nothing is your own responsibility.

[machiya]

Regret does not mean something wrong was done to me. To me regret is a sign that I made a poor choice and that I need to make better decisions in the future.

Yep. Personal responsibility and risk awareness are key concepts here.

I think Stoge's breakdown is quite good. Something I'd like to add  to the first category: When increasing knowledge about consent/BDSM leads to different understanding of events. This is something that comes up constantly in forums such as Reddit: Newbies have their first session, feel uneasy about something, but assume it is "normal BDSM" until other people tell  them how consent in BDSM works.

As viaton implied, the focus is on what A feels and communicates, not on what A is told to be not okay. E.g. if A has enjoyed the session and gives their partner positive feedback about it, the fact that B tells A "you're not supposed to feel alright about that" doesn't change that A had no negative feelings about the session. On the other hand, if A feels uncomfortable after the session but still gives untruthful feedback by saying they had enjoyed the session, the fact that they're able to express their discomfort just once B has validated their feeling by saying  "actually you had all the reason to feel uncomfortable, because what happened is wrong" is still a sign that A should work on their communication skills - for their own well-being, ultimately.

[harriet]

"the fact that they're able to express their discomfort just once B has validated their feeling by saying  "actually you had all the reason to feel uncomfortable, because what happened is wrong" is still a sign that A should work on their communication skills - for their own well-being, ultimately."

Yes, I agree with this. My main reason for bringing this up is that (from reading forums) it seems like the most common type of these cases and it wasn't specifically mentioned. And I think newbie-ness is not a red flag, but maybe a yellow flag, in that it should make the other party more careful in communication and assuring that the other party feels safe bringing things up. IMO with more  experience/knowledge, 'bad communication skills' becomes more of a red flag.

[Snadistisadisti]

In my opinion, when dealing with someone who has little or no experience of BDSM, the burden of making sure things are communicated properly lies more on the more experienced one - regardless of position in the situation. This does not mean, that noobs have a ’free pass’ and if shit hits the fan, it’s only the other’s fault.

For example if someone has worked in the bomb squad for 20 years and partner has seen ”Hurt locker” and is really exited about the concept, it is quite obvious who should make sure of operation’s safety - regardless of who actually handles explosives.

Long story short - inexperience itself is not a red flag, but it is a heavier responsibility, as one cannot be sure the other party is really in the same page.

[harriet]

Yes, this 100%

[Alexios]

Let's please not take any possible chance to derail the conversation towards specific alleged cases  On the other hand, if we wanna go down this road there's also the chance that person A was talked into believing that something went wrong by someone in a position of influence over them, e.g. another play partner or a therapist. After all, from this perspective malicious people with hidden agendas can be found anywhere.

What I wrote applies to any case, not just any specific ones.

[Alexios]

In my opinion, when dealing with someone who has little or no experience of BDSM, the burden of making sure things are communicated properly lies more on the more experienced one - regardless of position in the situation. This does not mean, that noobs have a ’free pass’ and if shit hits the fan, it’s only the other’s fault.

For example if someone has worked in the bomb squad for 20 years and partner has seen ”Hurt locker” and is really exited about the concept, it is quite obvious who should make sure of operation’s safety - regardless of who actually handles explosives.

Long story short - inexperience itself is not a red flag, but it is a heavier responsibility, as one cannot be sure the other party is really in the same page.

Agreed. I'd also add that when dealing with a newbie, extra detailed communication and checking for confirmation multiple times is advisable. And pressuring a newbie to do something they are unsure about is right out.

[machiya]

I'd also add that when dealing with a newbie, extra detailed communication and checking for confirmation multiple times is advisable. And pressuring a newbie to do something they are unsure about is right out.

Pressuring anyone to do something they are unsure about is a huge red flag, regardless of whether they are new or not.

But yes, agreed that being a newbie is of course not a red flag and playing with someone who's new to bdsm demands greater caution. On the other hand, newbies are at the same time adult individuals and the fact that they're new to bdsm doesn't mean that they can't show alarming behaviors. For example, the already cited red flag "you can do anything to me" is for me as alarming in newbies as it is for veterans. Of course the enthusiasm that make newbies feel like they want to try everything at once is a thing (been there, done that ), but at the same time not showing a reasonable dose of prudence regarding never tried before practices is a bit alarming.

[JuoMaitoaPerkele]

Tarve CIS hetero safe spacelle.